The Zeigarnik Effect

What do McDonald’s, IHOP, and a grocery store chain in England have in common? Join Mark and Lorraine as they explore how these brands tapped into the Zeigarnik Effect and how this psychological phenomenon affected their advertising efforts. Mark and Lorraine kick off the episode with a quick Super Bowl recap and some recent Starbucks news!

Spend 30ish with Mark and Lorraine as they talk all things marketing, advertising, and of course ... positioning!

Transcript

Mark Vandegrift 
Welcome to the Brand Shorthand Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Vandegrift, and joining us back from her birthday celebration is our positioning prodigy, Lorraine Kessler. Lorraine, how was your birthday? And I'll add in the Super Bowl.

Lorraine Kessler 
Well, I have to tell you, it was phenomenal because of two things. I could once pay attention to the Super Bowl, which had my favorite team, the Philadelphia Eagles. This was my birthday gift and it came in handy because my birthday is shared with Cooper Dejan and with Barkley and the Super Bowl 59 win. And here's a weird thing. Their birthdays were February 9th. They won the Super Bowl on February 9th. Their numbers, 26 and 33, equal 59. Yeah. It was destiny, destiny. And Sirianni lives in my hometown or near next to it and was in a bar that we used to frequent probably illegally. No, no, because I forget you could drink in those days at 18. Not that I did drink then. But yeah, a little townie bar that's converted into a little more upscale. But he was there the other night.

Mark Vandegrift 
I think you're safe. The statue of limitations has worn off. Not saying you're old or anything, but it's been a while.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, It's been a while, yeah. 3-2 beer in Ohio. Never heard of that.

Mark Vandegrift 
That's right. So where did you partake in the Super Bowl festivities?

Lorraine Kessler
We were up north at the lake house near Traverse City, just south of Traverse, Bear Lake.

Mark Vandegrift 
okay. Good. Very good. Well, we missed you. We had some exciting episodes the past two weeks tackling the Super Bowl ads. We changed up the format a little bit this year. We went with the ad meter thing to see how our panelists compared to what the ad meter, USA Today's ad meter, how they listed it, which is all based on viewer voting. So it was basically the public versus our professional opinion and they did pretty well. I think they were about 50 % matched up with what we thought was great. But if you haven't listened to those yet for our listeners, be sure to check those out to hear our insights on which brands scored a touchdown and those that might've fumbled. But Lorraine, any quick thoughts on the Super bowl since you did not contribute this year, which I know is kind of a relief for you.


Lorraine Kessler
Well, good. I'm glad you asked a couple of quick hits, although I wasn't really paying as much attention to the commercials. I think kudos to Doritos. I think you mentioned this in your podcast and also in your writing. I think they have a great team to build on. And obviously the consumer or prosumer kind of commercials really did a good job building on this for the bold. There were some that I thought were just really effective. of course, they've always been, I think Doritos has always done a good job entertaining while getting across the fact that they have these amazing flavors in their snack. I think Bud Light, and I'm not sure you mentioned this, but I really feel like they completely wiped out Dylan Mulvaney with the cul-de-sac spot, right? That had Peyton Manning in it and all the neighbors coming. So I think that's now way back in their rearview window. So kudos to them getting back to, I think, core audience and respecting them. It was really wild to me. The Pringles and Little Caesars both had like floating mustache and eyebrows. Like, is that the same agency? I mean, what was going on? Probably a lot of people maybe in Ohio aren't aware, but Little Caesar, when it started years, years, years ago and still has always had outrageous comedy and fun. And I really did enjoy the spot that featured Eugene Levy, but that was done really well. Slow Monday, that one is really interesting to me because, you know, I the Mamas and Papas song behind it, Monday, Monday. Yeah. And I think that the idea drew more attention to itself, kind of like Geico's hump day, right? People celebrate hump day and they don't remember it was Geico necessarily. I think Slow Monday has created to me is a new kind of concept that would take more hold than what brand was this for. So I think you called it. I mean, I thought the idea of Slow Monday fits, right? was really, to it's cultural.

Mark Vandegrift 
That's interesting. Yeah.

Lorraine Kessler
But again, it's one of these situations where the ad draws more attention to itself and to its concept than to the brand that's supposed to be promoted. And for me, number one, Matthew McConaughey with Uber Eats. I mean, this guy, first of all, he's just so talented. It was so engaging. And you and I talked about how Uber Eats was starting kind of with a disadvantage behind DoorDash because Uber Eats...Uber was known for moving people, could they make the line extension to moving food Uber eats? I think this spot squarely shows that that extension works. The only problem is that I don't even think of Uber as moving people anymore. I only think of it in relation to the spot as moving food. So, you know, it's that seesaw effect that we talked about, Jack Trout used to talk about that Heinz used to be number one in pickles and then it came out with ketchup. And now what do most people think of Heinz as synonymous with? ketchup. Very few with pickles. that necessarily isn't necessarily a terrible thing from a sales perspective, but it is from a perception perspective. It confuses your hierarchy.

Mark Vandegrift 
Yeah, I think what we're going to do is a recall episode just to go through and do kind of a, I don't know, a casual survey and just put some concepts out there and see if they connect to it. I think what's going to happen with Uber Eats to me is that people will remember the football made me hungry part of it. It's just in a differentiator for Uber Eats. It's, it is more like association by both personality and the concept, because the concept's funny, but it's just not, that could have been DoorDash as easy as it could have been UberEats. So I think that'll be interesting to see if the connection's still there. And then the other one that you mentioned that didn't rank as highly with our panelists was the Bud Light. And it's not because, I think where you're going is the fact that Bud Light made it all about the backyard, redneck, type person, is who their audience was originally before they offended them. But everyone that mentioned it said it didn't go anywhere. Like Post Malone was in there, Sean Gillis, Peyton Manning, and they didn't really use them as celebrity necessarily. It was kind of a miss on that. And it didn't go anywhere in terms of like, what's the party about? It's about a lawnmower that grills or a grill that mows the lawn, you know, it was kind of the connection there to an idea or a plot of the scene wasn't great. But I think where your landing is, we need to get this back to the fact that it is about the redneck, less sophisticated, I guess, consumer beer.

Lorraine Kessler
Well, people who drink beer in quantities who really don't want to be lectured to about how bad they are. so, yeah, I don't necessarily think any of Bed Light's commercials have been great since What's Up years ago. And that's one thing I think was really missing this year. There's no one commercial that I take away that created fame around an idea that is going to carry on other than maybe slow Monday, but they got to keep running that spot for that to take hold. It just caught me because I thought it was a really well done spot. And so, yeah, I mean, it's always interesting. I think you're wise to kind of do a post-mortem with some time. Do you remember what brand was being advertised? As much as I love the Hellman spot because I think Harry Met Sally is one of the best comedy movies ever written. The writing is just amazing in that film and of course the actors were great. I just wondered about how relevant that is to younger generations. Do they really know that movie? Yeah, and there was a connection to real but what they are doing that's right is I just caught one today. They're doing a post-Super Bowl spot.
Which is another snippet from the movie where the couple talks after they're married on the couch about their relationship. And they go back over the sandwich and the kind of bread and then, and the mayonnaise and this was, you know. So for people who know that movie, that's great. And the fact that they're extending it, I think is kudos to them. They had a pre-commercial, the Super Bowl day commercial, and now they have a post. That shows some commitment to the idea.

Mark Vandegrift 
Well, and I'm sure it's gonna make all the When Harry Met Sally producers and actors and screenwriters, et cetera, a lot of money because I bet people are going back and watching that movie again. And then the younger audiences will be like, what was this movie all about? And so I wouldn't be surprised if we see that as one of the primary downloads post-Super Bowl here. But yeah, it'll be fun to just see the connection.

One thing I will say is hallelujah that we didn't have a bunch of cultural statements all over the place. People just avoided it. In fact, maybe Bud Light made a great move in the fact that they didn't have a plot to the whole thing and it was just showing a bunch of people partying because then they didn't have to worry about being criticized for having some kind of subversive cultural statement in their ad. So it could have been,..., after all.

Lorraine Kessler
I will say that one thing that the Super Bowl does represent in terms of commercials, which is very different for us. And I have moved on this thinking. As much as I'm a positionist, and your ad should be about the product and the benefits and mainly about the differentiation, even if that idea is a simple idea like Ultra from Michelob and Ultimate Beer.

Not very complicated. I really feel, and this comes from study, the long and the short of it that has researched ads and their effectiveness. That really fame, fame of any kind, like entering into the cultural lexicon, becoming Hump Wednesday, Flo becoming the spokeswoman for Progressive. Even if you don't know that Progressive started out, we'll save you a lot of money because we're the first online insurance doesn't matter, it's fame trumps everything. So if you can get a spot that has that catchiness to it, and it does associate with the brand, right? And that takes, I think, some repetition. You've got to stick with an idea. You can't just run one spot in the Super Bowl and think it's done. It really trumps even having a very strong differentiation. It almost becomes the differentiation.

Mark Vandegrift 
Yeah. Well, my famous Bud Light commercial, you may or may not remember this one, but is the Yes, I am series and the one where the short guy comes up and there's a driver holding a sign that says Dr. Galakowitz. And the guy walks up and he goes, do you have any Bud Light? And he goes, yes, sir. And he goes, well, I'm Dr. Galoikich. He goes, you're Dr. Galakowitz? He goes, yes, I am. So that whole series, maybe we can get Lindsey to be able to find that one on YouTube, that whole series was my favorite Bud Light commercial of all time. I will always remember that. I mean, we went around saying, yes, I am.

Lorraine Kessler
Well, I think I'm gonna be saying that. Now, wasn't the frogs... that was just Budweiser. See, that's the problem with these names that are...

Mark Vandegrift 
Yeah. So when I was on WHBC interviewing with Pam Cook, her producer, Billy Bean, he, or Billy Bibby. Right now I'm, now I'm quoting old baseball players, but it was funny because he said that very thing. goes, I will never forget the frogs and the bud. Wise, er. And then they ended up coming out with, was it lizards or something like that? And they were jealous of the frogs. And so it was a whole series that was fabulous. And we're quoting and recalling ads that were Super Bowl ads that still stick with us 20, 30, 40 years later. So that says something about those ads.

Yeah. And I was asked the question by Scott on our last episode. Do you think any of these will stand the test of time? Like some of the ones we're quoting right now. And I said, well, there might be one or two and you brought up the one about slow Monday. It'll be interesting to see if that goes anywhere. Cause I thought that was well executed. And even though it was promotional around like Monday light, I don't know that you're going to connect that to Coors light.

Lorraine Kessler
No, no, the connection to the brand was not good unless they rely on repetition and keep repeating.

Mark Vandegrift 
Well, they're gonna have to stick with it. I mean, you're gonna actually have to go into the store and grab a case of Monday light for people to know that it's connected to Coors. Because otherwise, if it's a short promotional, you've lost any value to connecting it to the brand. So, well, we are halfway into our episode already. That's okay, because the Super Bowl spots are always fun to talk about and we missed your perspective this year. But we're gonna go into something that I would call is...relatively scientific in nature and may not be something that's all that common for our listeners who are in the marketing world. But we're gonna discuss what's called the Zeigarnik effect and how it can tie into advertising. I know that makes your, you just start wigging out right there Lorraine, because the science side of all of this.

Lorraine Kessler
I'm just impressed you can say it. I was like, when you sent me the note on this, like, how do you even pronounce this thing? But then you can speak fluent German.

Mark Vandegrift 
Yeah, well, this is a Polish scientist. So it was probably Zeigarnikiski at one point in time. Yeah, it's Zeigarnik. so that's just, you know, what our topic's going to be today. But before we get there, I do want to point out another headline that just hit this week. And the only reason it's kind of interesting is because my dad and I do coffee every week at Starbucks. And have you seen their new ads that the new CEO has kicked off? His name is Brian Niccol. And the name of it, of the campaign is Back to Starbucks. And he released an ad called Hello Again with the message, the Starbucks you love is ready. And it's designed to reintroduce the brand to showcase their commitment or their recommitment to making Starbucks kind of that community coffee house, the coffee experience it once was, not this, hey, get through the drive-through quickly and do the pickup order. And we're going to turn all of our Starbucks into only producing coffee rather than being a community gathering place. What are your thoughts on this? It looks like we're going to have the cafe dining experience, the return of refills, the return of a condiment bar. I even walked in two weeks ago and the barista asked me if I wanted in a mug. I'm like, a mug? You guys have mugs? And she goes, yeah, back there. And she shows me this mug. It's huge. It was the size of a venti. And I said, you know what? I'll have it in a mug.
So it was really changing back to what we remember Starbucks to be when it first came around. They have the handwritten messages that they're featuring. So what do you think?

Lorraine Kessler
I'm 100 % for this love, love, love. I think we did a podcast earlier where I really did a good job, I thought, trashing the previous CEO whose whole solution to this was faster drive-throughs, more menu items, doing everything faster. That is not where Starbucks began. That's not the core idea of what made Starbucks unique or differentiated, what you're going to compete with McDonald's in coffee and take out any experience. The only experience that matters is convenience and fast. And we know as marketers that those two motivations and or benefits are soft benefits. They're not the best benefits to be convenient or fast. It's not the best. It has to be relative to other things.

So I think it's absolutely the right experience, right direction. I love the experience. The commercials are great. And it gets back to kind of what I think is a pure positioning idea that comes from what Italian coffee shops are like, which was the initial inspiration for Howard Schultz, as well as born and hard art, which we talked about one point in New York and Philadelphia that create an experience for people to be together. who are of all different ethnicities and you know the immigrant time of America and enjoy that community. So I applaud it and I think they got to stick with it. One of the things I would look to do is get them out of things like Target, Walmart, and no that should not be the Starbucks experience.

Mark Vandegrift 
Yeah. Well, it Washington Square in North Canton, they converted that over. They don't even have any place to sit. So it'll be interesting to see if how they handle those. then down the road here, we have a drive through only one. So it'll be interesting to see if they shutter those or if they try to convert them or what they're going to do with those or if they just have them and assume, you know what, that's that's additional income that people who don't care about the experience, they just wanna get their Starbucks and get to work, maybe they keep those. So yeah, you can exist. yeah. Okay, well, as previously mentioned, we're gonna focus on the Zeigarnik effect today. And I know you love definitions. So I'm gonna give one here. This is from the American Psychological Association, who defines the Zeigarnik effect as the tendency for interrupted or uncompleted tasks to be remembered more so than completed tasks. And this phenomenon discovered by Bluma Zeigarnik was first recognized in a restaurant where she noted a waiter's ability to recall complex orders from multiple tables while they were in process. But the moment that she delivers those orders and the orders are done, there's almost no recollection as to what they ordered and paid for. So this observation led Dr. Zeigarnik to conduct a series of experiments in which her participants were interrupted halfway through the completion of a task. And through that research, she found that uncompleted tasks are remembered 90 % more than completed tasks. So guess what? This has to make its way into marketing and we experience this effect all the time in our everyday lives without even realizing it. So Lorraine, would you like to share your thoughts on how marketers might use or benefit from the Zeigarnik effect in their advertising efforts? And whether you agree or disagree, we should even bother with this whole topic.

Lorraine Kessler
it's definitely relevant. Advertisers have been doing this forever. And you know what? Thank God we now have a big fancy title no one can pronounce to understand what advertisers have understood since the 1900s. And even before when the guys sold elixirs off the wagon. I mean, yes, it's just common sense. Think of Paul Harvey and the rest of the story, right? We all want to fill in the gap.

We all have these gaps or, you know, think about cliffhangers, whether it be a movie or a TV show, and there's a cliffhanger and you want to thirst for more. Um, so yeah, uh, I think one of the things, you sent me this is that, you know, included in this for advertisers is things like we know work are absolutely the gospel for direct marketing, right? For what we would call activation marketing or transactional marketing.

that is supposed to produce a sale in short time. Limited time offers, right? Only 86 bottles left, order now, right? Fear of missing out, creating the whole psychology that if you don't act now, you're gonna be behind, you're not gonna be able to act at all. So all these things about, I think, techniques, we used to call them stimuli, but I'm really happy. We now have a deep psychological, big title. I'm just going to call it the Z effect. If Musk has X, I'm going to take Z. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. mean, our IQ is about the same. So yes, this whole idea of we used to call this just stimulus. I this was the stimulus you needed.

Mark Vandegrift 
Zeigarnik effect. You better grab the domain now. I don't think it's available, but

Lorraine Kessler
So, but it's great because on the other hand, being awful about this, marketing is all about psychology. So the more you understand why people behave the way they do, not what they tell you that they will do or want to do or why they do it, but what they actually do and how they actually think, the better. And I think that's something that every advertiser should take psychology courses to kind of understand.

Mark Vandegrift 
Yeah, yeah. Well, the article that I sent you, the reason it came up is because there was somewhat of a controversial, not only controversial as, you know, it was perverted or anything like that, but controversial among marketers as to whether this campaign over in England was going to work or not. There's a chain over there called Tesco, a pretty big chain. And instead of doing their normal logo, which Lindsey will throw up on the screen for us, they actually put food items over top of their traditional logo. They have like dashes underneath Tesco. So it's like T-E-S-C-O and there's a blue dash underneath each one. Instead of using that, they put up their foods that start with T-E-S-C-O. So like E is eggs, S is strawberry, C is croissant, right?

So those blue dashes that normally accompany the red letters have remained intact, but with those different foods, there was a big controversy with marketers. Does this really work? Having seen this billboard now, what do you think in terms of using this and applying the Zeigarnik effect, which is again, what this article was about relating to Tesco. What do you think about it?

Lorraine Kessler
Well, first I'll say that part of the Z effect is obviously true is that people remember things that they discover, right? More than you telling them. So if I discover something for myself, so I mean, how many of us remember or even knew that there was an arrow in the FedEx logo, right? And then we discover that and you never forget it. It's like, that's kind of a aha. So I think everything relative to Tesco is and that is a name, right? Tesco, because I'm not familiar with them, relates to their familiarity, how much brand awareness they have. Is it high, is it low, is it middle of the road? For example, you could see Nike just putting a billboard with a swoop and everybody would get it. Now, I think from everything I've looked at and read that you said is that their brand awareness is very high.

And so people know those dashes represent that store. I looked at the billboards and stuff you sent me. It took me forever to realize, the vegetable or food over each spells the name. I didn't even need that to get, this is kind of cool. This is a grocery store and they're promoting quality and freshness and whatever. And that was enough. And then when you filled it in, like the FedEx logo, which I always liked that, there's another hidden meaning, that the product over the tea is tomato, right, et cetera. That's an aha. So I think it's hugely effective campaign. I think it shows a confidence and also strangely a paradox. Confidence in their leadership and their awareness and what they're about, the people who most people know when they're approaching their core customer.

But also a humility, because it's so understated. There's kind of a beautiful kind of approachability to it. So I would arrow on the side of saying that it's really a good campaign. Now the only, and it's not even a negative, it's just an observation from, again, this research done in the book called The Long and the Short of It, and I'll show you the book. This is the book. Can you guys see that? Okay.

The research proves out that it's much better to go after new customers than to constantly worry or proportionately, you need to do both, but proportionately, it's better to always go after bringing new people into the fold than customer relations or management of ongoing customers. So my question is, do people who are not Tesco's customers also have high familiarity. If they do, because of the way they've marketed and they've done a good job of being mass in their marketing, then it's a win. But if not, if they kind of have been a little bit more narrow, will it bring in new customers? I'm not sure. But I will say that they known, they have been advertising very kind of flat line, very rational, that it's high quality and value, right? Price and value. and it's almost like a Target kind of position or Aldi or whatever. That gets pretty flat and boring after a while, you know? And the worst thing for advertising to be is to bore your audience. And again, this book, long and the short of it, makes this separation. When you're doing brand marketing, and this is brand marketing, right? It's all emotional. The rational does not work. It works in transactional and activation. And you need both. You need both to have a successful campaign. Here's what they actually say in this study. Emotional campaigns, and in particular those that are highly creative, as this one is, generate powerful fame buzz effects and more powerful long-term effects than rational persuasion campaigns. Now you need both. You need to, I would say that to, we're looking at one snippet, these outdoors, the out of home or billboard, whatever you want to call it, campaign that's very brand centric. But I think to really give an evaluation of how their marketing is working, you need to see what are they doing in the transactional activation side that supports the brand. You need both. And I would continue to fight for that.

Mark Vandegrift 
Yeah. Well, and we've done teaser campaigns over the years. I don't know how much that falls into it's an incomplete advertisement, right? So you show an element of what's coming enough to get people talking about it. And then you might even show a second concept that's still incomplete. And then when you finally land on the third one, I think the risk there is that when the complete concept finally hits in that case of teasing, that it's not a disappointment. So that goes back to, think in one regard to making sure that the emotional side of the brain is delighted, right? That's what we really want to do.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, and the punchline is worth it. you, know, Birnbach said that not getting attention is commercial suicide. So let's say you did a teaser campaign that got attention. People are like, what is this? And then you deliver a dud for a punchline. That's almost worse because it's like you've wasted all the attention

Mark Vandegrift 
Well do you remember IHop did that. They said they're going to change it to IHob a I H O B instead of I H O P. And I don't even remember. mean, that was such a dud in the end of it. And everyone's like, Oh, well it created a lot of PR. Well, yeah. But then there was a big dud in terms of what the whole thing, why they were going to rename and what the purpose of renaming it was and all of that. Do you remember that one?

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, and the problem with that is I'm not even sure that was a PR stunt. I think they tried to backpedal it as a PR stunt. I'm not sure. I thought they were being serious about changing their name because they wanted to expand their day parts. And that just went over like a lead balloon because people are like, what are you gonna do with the candy breakfasts I love? I mean, what are you gonna be? Like chilies and like, you know, Applebee's and like what happens to the IHOP I love. And then it came out that that was just a PR stunt. Well, it was a bad PR stunt because what it did is it didn't create positive curiosity. It created kind of fear that I'm going to lose something I really like. And so what are you doing with the IHOP I love? So, you know, again, it was a miscalculation in that respect. But most teaser campaigns, if they...Yeah, you know, to me it's like comedy. mean...teaser campaigns have to deliver the right punchline and a rewarding punchline. And it's really hard to craft a really good joke, right? It's not easy. I think comedians are among the smartest people on the planet who can make people laugh universally at a set up and a punchline.

Mark Vandegrift 
Yeah. Well, I think our summary on the Zeigarnik effect is that it can be a useful tool. It is powerful to the mind when it's done well. And you can certainly get a lot of duds out of it, as we've talked about. But at the end of the day, there's a scientific name for it. And marketers should have it as one of the arrows in their quiver. And even if they don't know the name of it they certainly can take advantage of it. So any final thoughts on this before we wrap up today's episode?

Lorraine Kessler
Well, I definitely feel that the Z effect is true because I don't remember any of these podcasts when they're done. beforehand, I'm thinking, okay, I want to make sure that I'm on time, which I wasn't today. At one point, which I'm not always, but like afterwards, it's like you say to me, remember we did this and I'm like, no, I have to go look at the...paperwork or listen to the podcast.

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah, well think about tests when you cram for a test and you take that test and you leave the room, how much knowledge just goes out the ears, right? So it's same kind of thing. Yeah.

Lorraine Kessler
Right. And I think you had mentioned too, you had pointed me to looking at some McDonald's billboards that were really pretty interesting. Cause they just have part of the golden arches. And here's a point I want everyone to take who's a marketer seriously. Don't attempt what Tesco did or McDonald's is doing without strong familiarity for your brand and its identity, how people identify it, its colors, its icon, its logo, that would be disastrous. And in our own market, there's a guy named Tim Misny, right? And what does he say? He's a, what do call him? What kind of lawyer is that? Personal, personal, yeah, personal injury lawyer. Yeah, he's extremely effective. And what's his slogan for years?

Mark Vandegrift 
I'll make them pay.

Lorraine Kessler
Make them pay and then he himself is the icon. He's a very imposing man Super eyebrows who point he's bald. He points at you. He's in this dark suit white shirt I mean he is he's an icon and He's has billboards right near Well, first he he went from I'll make them pay which she's done for years All of a sudden there were billboards that showed up and he's it has his face and it says, know what I did you drive by and you go, yeah, I do. You make them pay. And now he has a billboard going to the airport, which is very Andy Warhol. It has his face like in Warhol style of Marilyn Monroe. And that's all it is. And you drive by and you say, he'll make them pay. mean, that's so this works. It works, but only if you have and you have confidence. And the reality is that you built enormous familiarity with your message.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, and the one I think he's done real well is just with the eyebrow. I mean, you literally just get part of his face and his raised eyebrow that he's always done in these commercials. And that might be the closest thing to the Z effect, right? Because there's no wording on it, but you know exactly who it is. You know exactly what he does.

Lorraine Kessler
Yep, brilliant.

Mark Vandegrift 
Yeah, good. Well, let's close up this episode of the Brand Shorthand Podcast. And as always, don't forget to like, subscribe, subscribe and subscribe. Tell your friends. And until next time, have an amazing day.