Brand Refreshes vs Brand New Logos

While tech companies like Best Buy, Verizon, and BitCoin’s Verse are refreshing their logos, women’s accessory companies like Zales and Vera Bradley are introducing entire brand refreshes. Join Mark and Lorraine as they talk the differences between a brand refresh and a brand new logo. The positioning duo tackles the latest marketing overhauls, the origins of Singer Corporation, and some successful past brand refreshes.

Spend 30ish with Mark and Lorraine as they talk all things marketing, advertising, and of course … positioning!

Transcript

Mark Vandegrift
Welcome to the Brand Shorthand Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Vandegrift, and with me today is our professor of positioning, Lorraine Kessler. Lorraine, guess what starts today? The DNC. What will most interest you, because I know you'll be watching it, what most interests you in terms of a positioning perspective? What do you think they'll do?

Lorraine Kessler
Well, this is really interesting because you know in positioning the key tenet, is that differences drive choice. So the more you can magnify the differences between you and your competitive ideas or thoughts or whatever, the better. And there's got to be an audience for either one of those. And I've always thought that the strength of the Democratic National Convention or party has been this is the party moving it forward because we talked about how the RNC has tried to become now the populist party and that used to be the Democratic Party's position. But now they have the old, what do you want to call it, stakeholders who've held on to power in Washington for I don't know how many years, at least 16 that I'm aware of. So they're very fossilized as controlling DC. So where did they go? It's hard to be populist when you have all power or you've had the majority of the power for this long. So I've always thought of the Democratic Party, and I think this is something they're going to get back to, is the party for social equity. You know, this party who wants to everyone to win and have- concerned about those who are falling behind. And I think that's a tent that the Democratic Party can comfortably build because it has, it's a wide terrain, right? It covers people, working wage people. It covers childcare, DEI, the judiciary, reproductive rights. And finally, it even covers government as kind of the arbitrator and the best solution for making things equal that are unequal naturally. Whether you agree with that or not, I think that's their tent. And I think that would help them distance from kind of the power broker image that they may have with some, with Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff, and that guard, and bring them forward. It's really very Obama, right? It's very much a reboot of the Obama strategy. And the other thing I think that they can do is I expect them to contrast that much of the RNC is kind of what we would call reactionary, kind of. This happened in the Goldwater-Johnson years, right? Goldwater was called "The Great Reactionary". That, we want to make America great again in the way it was great in the past. And the DNC is talking about the future because what made us great in the past isn't going to be what makes us great in the future. So very- two different visions. And I expect them to play both on both of these chords, if you will.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, grab some popcorn because I think the theater is just beginning.

Lorraine Kessler
Well, I think her choice of VP candidate kind of normalizes, brings her more to center. And I think that's going to give the DMC kind of the right position it needs to be in to compete effectively.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, it is gonna be interesting and we got a few nights of it, just like we did with RNC. It'll be some tune in to watch and enjoy all the happenings, right? So, well, I thought we'd dive into an area today about brand refreshes and what that really means. So I think we'll answer the question, is there anything new under the sun? And- well, sort of- and then speaking to that maxim of something new, you sent me a neat article about the Singer sewing machine, showing that perhaps as much as we think we're so smart and innovative in the 21st century, that sometimes this stuff existed a long time ago and it didn't have the fancy label, but this is a good example of that. So share with us the story that you shared with me.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, the reason I share with it is that we were happened to have privilege to go to Cooperstown, New York to see our grandson play. So we went to the museum and being kind of the nerd I am, I kind of researched the history of Cooperstown and I found that in 1848, Isaac Merritt Singer, inventor of the sewing machine, became a client of a law firm called Ambrose and Clark. And Edward Clark moved to Cooperstown right after the- prior to the Civil War, and therefore was part of the partners of this law firm. And he was so impressed with the client, Isaac Singer and the product, that he left his legal career to take a 50% stake in the Singer and Company. But beyond being a lawyer, which I love when this happens, we have some lawyers who have this marketing ability. One of the things about Edward Clark is that he had a flair for marketing. So he had the bright idea, and you'll get this today and anybody listening, to give away sewing machines half price to influential persons such as ministers wives and teachers. And he also developed the idea of an installment plan to let families pay over time. So those are breakthrough, this is prior civil war stuff. So he used the influencers to build a strong base or demand, and he used promotion to drive that acquisition, you know, that conversion all the way through.

Mark Vandegrift
Wow. So influencer marketing, promotional pricing, K-Mart layaway plan. Not quite. So all these things come to mind. So what you're saying is we're not as innovative as we think we think we are.

Lorraine Kessler
No, tech- no.

Mark Vandegrift
I love that. It's sort of like all these terms we use today, like "content marketing", which I have to give a pass, but you know, because that means a certain thing, but isn't that what marketing is? We develop content. It's kind of funny. And influencer marketing, as you and I always said, back in our day, it was called "celebrity endorsement". That's kind of funny.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, yeah. They're just very small turns on the same idea.

Mark Vandegrift
Yep, exactly. Well, let's get to our topic today. I mentioned brand refreshes and what is a refresh versus there's nothing new under the sun. I put "brand refreshes" in quotes because I'm not sure we can properly refer to all of these that we're going to talk about as brand refreshes. "Logo refresh" might be more appropriate in some cases. So let's define what we would say is the definition of a brand refresh. And then more importantly, what's the goal of doing that? What should a brain refresh accomplish? And then secondly, in your opinion, Lorraine, when a brand refresh happens, does it make sense to tell the whole world that we just did a brain refresh or do we want them to pick it up by osmosis, like organically? Just they know something's different, but they aren't sure what's different.

Lorraine Kessler
All right, with two questions. Well, first is a brand refresh is much deeper than just a logo change, right? Because a logo is just your identifier. And you can refresh in your logo because you want it to aesthetically be more in tune with today's tastes and what have you and make something seem a little more relevant, whatever. But a brand refresh should go much deeper. It goes to the meaning of the brand. I mean, the real meaning. And Guy Kawasaki is famous for saying, "Make meaning and make money," right? So it's much more global in terms of what it should touch. It touches everything from the logo, the website, your videos, your spokesperson, how you do your advertising, and basically the product, even the channels you sell through. These are all the things- and consumer or customer you want to attract, or keep, and then who do you want to attract? So it's much more pervasive, deeper, and broader. So that's really important. And of course, when you're doing that, I think your second question was, do you keep that of quiet?

Mark Vandegrift
What's goal of it in the end? Why do it?

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, well, the goal, you know, as we talked about brands lose relevance and it's the loss of relevance. The speed of loss of relevance depends on the industry and market. There are certain industries and markets where relevance can be lost very quickly, particularly those that are more fashion driven, right? More style driven, more luxury driven, versus, let's say, engineering or manufacturing driven, know, business to business. So it really does depend on that, the category itself. But, you know, getting- it's really important to make sure that your brand is staying current with those tastes and with what's relevant to customers as they change attitudes, because attitudes shape behaviors. And markets are dynamic, so you have to do that. So you have to have your pulse on the customer and where they are and what they expect and make sure your brand hasn't gotten stale because, as we talked about, once you lose that fascination, it's really hard to get that back, right? And so that's important.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, what I hear you say is even though most of these are logo refreshes that define themselves as a brand refresh, a brand refresh actually doesn't need to touch the logo. I think GE is a good example of that, right?

Lorraine Kessler
Well, yeah, it doesn't have to touch the logo. You know, yes, because GE hasn't changed their logo, I think, in forever. I mean, they patently refused to.

Mark Vandegrift
But they've done brand refreshes.

Lorraine Kessler
Right. But they've done brand refreshes because they've done it through product and channel and manufacturing and engineering and innovations in all sorts of ways. And whereas other brands, and you probably don't even notice it, it's kind of organic. Apple's gone through a number of different logo mutations. I don't recall them doing a big to-do about it. They just kind of introduced a simplified- if you look at the beginning with all the colors that they used to have with the Apple logo, they just got simpler, simpler, simpler, and simpler. And they didn't put a press release out before every change, right? So you really do, it really requires discernment. It really requires kind of a good judgment.

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah. Well, let's talk about a couple that have gone on recently. We have a litmus test here, I think, what we're calling a logo refresh versus a brand refresh, which touches the bigger meaning of the brand and what its value is. So the one that caught my eye recently was Best Buy. Lorraine, what's your take on this one?

Lorraine Kessler
Well, I think Best Buy's got a lot of pressures and troubles going on. And I'll start with their tagline. They have the new tagline, "Imagine That", which by itself, you know, typically I'm not a fan of taglines that are so generic that could almost be applied to everything from "Imagine That: Desserts" to "Imagine That: Clothing".

Mark Vandegrift
Etsy.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, to "Imagine That: Weight Loss", Imagine- I mean, it's a tagline that could work almost for anything.

Mark Vandegrift
"Imagine That!"

Lorraine Kessler
So that's usually just not a good idea, right? We would like something much more specific. Hey, it's not an unpleasing tagline, "Imagine That". And in context with the commercial that they're doing, okay, it swings, but I doubt that it will have high recall or memorability. So I think the meaning or the main aim that Best Buy is trying to go after with their new brand refresh, logo refresh, whole campaign- first of all, they did bring in a "spokes-hologram". So it's a character, right? And they're trying to- that's called personification. Which is not a bad strategy to use in a refresh because trying kind of create a different way for your audience to connect with the brand. And this is certainly unique. It's not unlike Flo or "Do You Hear Me Now" Guy or Tony the Tiger or any of that. But to make this work long-term, they really have to own it. They have to bleed it. They have a commercial right now. It's a little, because it's so unfamiliar what's going on, it's a little hard to tell what's going on with it. What they're trying to get across is that Best Buy is the hub for discovering new technologies. So it's almost like they're saying, kind of the place you can go to learn how to use technology to benefit your life. Almost like a library instead of a store. I don't know. I don't know how that's gonna play out, but it's a thought and maybe they'll be successful, but they've really got to bleed it. Now, the other thing they changed is their logo and they made a big deal about. It is different. It still has the price tag, but now off to the side. And they got rid of the very strong yellow and dark blue only. They softened all the colors. They said that they added magenta, teal, and red. I don't see any of those colors and I have an MFA. I was like, where is the magenta? It is kind of a teal-y blue, but it's less retail for sure. And it is much more service looking, right? Like, "we are creating a service or an experience". It's something like almost we would design for someone who did a financial service, right? Or something like that. So it is a very different kind of feel, not quite as hard retail, brick and mortar. So I would say overall, school's out with how well this whole refresh goes. I feel like the idea that we're the hub for technology and how to use it or discovering it is a little too highfalutin to understand right now. So I think they need to bring it down a little.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, I haven't gone to Best Buy for technology in a good 10 years. And yet I buy a lot of technology, so I don't know. I'm not their customer, obviously.

Lorraine Kessler
Well, that's why they have a real problem. I mean, they have a real problem and it's beyond, that's why I think, "will this refresh solve the problem?" I don't know. It makes people think, inside feel really good that they're doing something. I'm not so sure it's in the end going to deliver the results they need in terms of same store sales, profitability, success, traction.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, the one I'm going to share is related to Bitcoin. Everyone knows Bitcoin, but I don't know if they know their rewards program. And the rewards program is called Verse, V-E-R-S-E. And they had an interesting way to decide on their brand refresh, but I'm going to call this a logo refresh, okay? It didn't change the meaning, but I will say I like how they went about doing the logo refresh, okay? Because we always say, make sure that it makes sense to your existing customer. So what they did was they involved their entire universe in choosing the logo refresh. So that was kind of cool. And given that, you know, Bitcoin is all virtual anyhow, and everybody's virtually online and you're not actually touching anything, it kind of makes sense that, you know, you can reach out to this community. And it was interesting because usually you involve that large of a group, you're going to get, you know, parity, right? So you're going to get 50-50 or in this case, they gave three options. You might get one third, one third, and one third. Well, they published a creative brief, which shocked me. Wow. But not in like marketing ease. They were trying to convey to people. And so this was just about the logo and they had three points of input. They said, while the current logo looks futuristic and communicates innovation, it is uninviting for Web2 users- so "web two", number two- so people that understand the web and adopt it. The brand colors are black and blue, which appears cold and, again, uninviting. Third, the use of space imagery, meaning outer space, reinforces the exclusivity. Not many Web2 users will relate to it. And they said, the goal of this is to expand this Bitcoin universe and people to use the verse rewards program. Then they presented the three options, which we'll show on screen here. And I didn't think it was a bad approach to get input from the existing customer base because what do we always say? Protect the base, right, and expand the periphery. Or protect the core and expand the base. So they only introduced this Verse rewards program in December 2022. So it's only been like 19 months by my calculation. And in the three options, the first one was "Evolution". And it says it's "a softer take on the current branding". When I looked at it, I thought it looked very tech-y, so, eh. The option two was called "Hearts and Hands", and it said "a bolder, more inclusive branding". When I looked at it, I just saw like a very soft, almost a charitable type logo. And then three, despite the creative brief, "maintain the status quo and keep the current branding". Which is interesting because the input I read to you was all about how the current logo wasn't great. So what they ended up picking with a vast majority, like an overwhelming majority, you rarely see this, 90% picked option number two, which was called "Hearts and Hands". And it was that more soft, charitable looking brand. So I think it was pretty cool because how did it line up with Bitcoin's position? Well, they're a decentralized governance system, right? So if you're decentralized, then you're going to make decisions sometimes that are, maybe this wasn't a huge decision, it's a logo after all, but it was a way for them to reinforce their position that they were decentralized. So I think their statement was "this mechanism empowers all Verse holders to have a say in the ecosystem's growth and future direction, ensuring that decisions reflect the community's collective vision". So, okay, just a logo refresh, but they did do it in a way that represented their position in the world, right? As a decentralized governance system, as the leader, you know, Bitcoin is the leader in this space. So I thought that was all great, but I don't wanna call it a brand refresh, which is how it popped up on here.

Lorraine Kessler
No, no, it shouldn't be. And I think that all their language is really highfalutin. I mean, come on. What people really chose to me, looking at these logos, is just something that's more human, more friendly, more approachable, because the tech of Bitcoin is threatening. And it's distant. I don't- and it's- that can be threatened, right? Because I don't know who's behind it, and it's just this tech-y thing. right. They just chose something that has more of a human feel to it. That's how I view it.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, I mean, if you put two pictures in front of people, they're going to pick one. And most tech users aren't going to stick with what's already there if they've been told, hey, we're going a new direction. And they've been talked out of staying with the current direction. It's like, do you like this picture or do you like this picture? That's all it really was.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah. I think there might be a flaw in the research too, having put the last one in that looks so much like their current, because people innately, it's almost like that wasn't a choice at all. Right?

Mark Vandegrift
No, it was their current logo. It wasn't like it, it was it.

Lorraine Kessler
Alright. Alright. So it's their current logo. It's almost like that was a throwaway because the only thing that you can find or learn from that is very often people like the familiar. They don't want to change. So how many people really like this? And my reason would be because they like the familiar. And that might give you a good bead into how many people are we going to upset with our new logo. But I think one of the things that's, you know, I'm always cautious about research because if you ask the wrong questions, then you get the wrong answers. And you go to the bank feeling really confident in the wrong direction. Because you got the wrong answers to the wrong questions. So in the logo they chose, my question would be, would you recognize this as Bitcoin? Almost like a blind thing where you put it up to another group, a different audience. Take another customer pool and say, whose logo is this? And what company do you recognize this coming from? And if they don't recognize it- because we know 35% of logo changes end up in a failure because people don't connect it to the brand they know. So you have to have some of the familiar with some of the new. Anyway, that's-

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah. Well, in this case, the reason I applaud it is it actually goes to their position of being decentralized, right? And they're giving them basically a very... easy decision. Is it going to make a big difference in the company? I don't think so. So you've given people an opportunity to contribute without risking a huge decision going the wrong way because of research. You know, however you want to look at it, the point was it's not a brand refresh, it's a logo change, but you did it in a way that aligned with your position. So, small round of applause for them.

Lorraine Kessler
Good, good.

Mark Vandegrift
So next up Lorraine, I think we called out Verizon. They came on our radar as recently doing a "brand refresh".

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah.

Mark Vandegrift
Tell us what you think.

Lorraine Kessler
I think it's mainly a logo refresh. And in that regard, it does do what I was just talking about. There's a lot of the familiar with the new and they have a lot of highfalutin language around the energy of the brand and the logo and the "V" and hey, you know, it works. But is it going to make a huge difference? No, no, I still recognize it as Verizon. I mean, do we recognize every iteration of the Tide logo over the years? I mean, it's always interesting to take Tide packaging and then put it together. Most people don't even know how it's changed. I almost see the Verizon logo change as that kind of subtle. It's not overly dramatic. I think, and sadly, I have a very bad experience with Verizon, so I am jaundiced. I switched from AT&T to Verizon because I was promised a certain guaranteed price, the things they're talking about now, a simpler billing, a simpler way of working. It was the worst. So I hear them saying a lot of the same things. And what I thought was really, you know, they're now offering guaranteed pricing for up to four years, no hidden fees. I'd be interested to see that. No equipment charges. That'd be good because they were socking me with equipment charges. But sounds good, but they got to deliver. They operate like a monopoly and the communication between the store who sells you this and corporate is abysmally bad. Even my store agents who gave me a guaranteed price- and I never got that guaranteed price in the six months I was with Verizon- could not get the main corporate to honor what they negotiated with corporate when they get sold me my plan. So, and then they have all these services, you know, like this "Verizon Access", it's really robust. It's confusing what they're- you know, it's internet and it's certain programming and it's better subscription prices. You know, it's easier to buy a Roku. It's easier to buy an Apple over the top. I think they're going so broad and have so many services. It's mind numbing. And I don't know how many people really are spending that much time to figure all this. And if you feel like you're already buying from a monopolized carrier to begin with, how much power do you want to give them over your digital life or social life? So the promise of simplicity that they had was the one after all this explanation in their, what they call their refocus or rebranding or whatever they called it. They said, it's the promise of simplicity. There was no simplicity in any way. So I think they set up a lot to live up to operationally that they as a large, huge, bureaucratic corporation monopoly will have a very hard time delivering. That's me. I'm jaundice, so anybody can take me on, but I guess time will tell with them.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, the summary is the logo is the only thing being refreshed with the same blah, blah, blah language. And Lorraine doesn't like Verizon. That was what I took away from that.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah. Yeah. Good luck with you when you go to a Verizon. Hey, you know that world. It's crazy. The bigger they are, the more complicated they make it. The billing is multiple pages. So you know what be simple if they had a one-page bill? Yep.

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah. Well, I think that's why Cricket and Boost Mobile and some of these others are so popular. Is there a layer on top of that to make it easier for the consumer? you know, I know we, we had Boost Mobile, I think was one that was on the list at one point. And they're, I think they're very successful right now. And it's probably because they're making easier on the consumer, which is really what any technology's goal should be.

Lorraine Kessler
Right. You know, Jack Trout used to say, God bless him, in the day when VCR came out, "people want to push a button and have it work", right? And the more complexity you add, the more suppression. You know, we talk about marketing and how you suppress a sale. I think you suppress sales.

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah, well that speaks to the whole organization too. It's not just the marketing, it's the whole experience around the company. if you're gonna be about simple, you better be about simple even in your billing. So anyhow, well I'm gonna take the next one. And this is one where they're not touching the logo as far as I'm aware. This is Zales. You familiar with Zales?

Lorraine Kessler
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Mark Vandegrift
Yep. So I would classify this one as expansion of the brand, and I applaud it as a brand refresh, but a refresh in as it's expanding. They are doing two primary things. They want to expand their online presence while also refreshing their in-house experience. Okay, so that's the first thing. It's kind of the virtual-meets-physical. The second is, they are going to lower some of their price points without getting down to the just, they'll be just above the costume jewelry arena where you might be able to go in and get like a $250, $500 item. So it's above the costume jewelry level and they're going to have more out for people to touch and feel. So that goes back to the in-store experience. You know, Zales has been a dated brand over the years, and what they found out is they're selling a lot less Forever jewelry, you know, because people aren't getting married like they used to. But what they are selling is very high-end stuff. You can go into the store and get a $75,000 piece of jewelry. But now what you can do is also go in and get a $250 piece of jewelry. So theirs is really what they're trying to do is work on what is a hundred-year-old company that has become stale, like you've talked about with a couple of brands, and they realized that they need to become fresh, as in the brand refresh, and work on both the virtual, the physical, and also the price points. New commercials and things like that to help with the brand refresh. So to me, it is working on their meaning, and it doesn't have anything to do with adjusting their logo. At least the news item that I read had nothing to do with- just a logo refresh.

Lorraine Kessler
Well, interesting. I wasn't aware of that. The only thing that catches me is that I lose everything. I lose every pen. I've had three Mont Blancs, right? I lose jewelry. I lose eyeglasses. I never would want a $75,000... jewelry ever. But even $250 would push me. But God bless the people who do. I have people who are- my sister is a jewelry fanatic. So she would love that.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, tell us about our next one, Vera Bradley.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, Vera Bradley, I would say was the favorite quilted fabric handbags, right? Famous for their prints that were almost kind of a little bit 70s, a little bit hippie-ish, flowers, and became a fan favorite of boomer soccer moms, you know, in my generation. And then things really went south. They were losing lots of money, having trouble making profit and so a new CEO Jackie Ardrey came in and she was able through cutting many C-suite jobs. Obviously they got too fat at the top. They returned 7.8 million in profit in March. So then they- she and her CMO, March Dawn, to project restoration. Very ambitious. This was not a logo refresh only. Now in retrospect, Vera Bradley has had four different logos in its history, very different from even the new one. none of them, the new one's very nice. It's very diminutive, very friendly and approachable. It fits the brand. But the first one was like a signature, Vera Bradley. So obviously the success or failure of this brand has nothing to do or very little to do with the logo, right? When we're talking about project restoration, we're talking about something much more fundamental. In fact, Jackie Ardrey, the CEO said that fundamentally- this is a good definition- fundamentally brand transformation is about evolving our product and making our brand more relevant to today's consumer. So I think that's a pretty good definition. We talked about relevance as being very key. So the launch of this has come out with all new some new patterns and some new fabrics. So they touched their product their channels. It's pretty persuasi- pervasive in terms of what it involved. But the reviews have been very mixed and most alarming I think is the influencers who obviously were Vera Bradley strongholds are very unhappy with where this brand has gone. They say, you know, some of the new fabric is like gabardine and muslin, and that's okay, but the nylon that they're putting inside some of their cosmetic bags are cheap. There's a feeling, and these are among core customers, people who really love the brand and were looking forward to the restoration. They cite that there's a reduced cost at a cost in quality. So a bag that was $120 is now $100, but there's an obvious loss of quality in the fabric and the stitching, in how things are put together, what's called the "bundies" inside, that Vera Bradley was known to this audience, the core audience, for what they call collections. So if you liked a certain print, you could get that in a big duffel, you could get it in a backpack, you could get it in a cosmetic bag, you could- now it's a skipping mess. So there isn't that collection idea. You might like a pattern, but you're not going to find it in your cosmetic bag, and you're not going to find it in the duffel bag. And a couple of quotes that I read on these posts from these influencers who are loyal. One was, "I was shocked when I went on the Vera Bradley site and saw everything had changed. I don't like it when companies alienate their existing customers in hope of possibly attracting new ones." So Vera Bradley went on record and said our customer's 35-54, but we want to attract 18-24-year-olds who are collegiate. And it doesn't seem like, you know, we'll see how that plays out for them. Another quote-

Mark Vandegrift
Sounds like they want everyone.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, and-

Mark Vandegrift
18-55, and by the way, we already had the 55 plus, so-

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah. So here's another quote. "I've been using Vera Bradley since like high school. Laugh out loud. Now I hate everything on their site. I'll never buy another thing from them." So here's the key: if they're trying to go after this 18i24 younger with, and the new patterns are very bold, some are even somber, which doesn't kind of reflect where the brand has been, time will tell. Staunch customers rated a fail and maybe these new customers, the younger generation, time will tell, respond to it. But if they don't and you lose more of your core customer, then it's a net-zero. Then you're losing. But I'm not a fashion person. I think this is a very hard, of all the places I'd want to be in, fashion's the least... industry I'd want to be in because it's so subject to turmoil and turnover and change and what have you.

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah. Well, to finish off our discussion of brand refreshes, let's discuss a few that are in the rear view mirror. Okay? And I picked these up from just some of the discussions we've had over our last 50 episodes. I'm gonna throw a couple out to you and maybe you can say whether they were boom or bust. Let's go with Dunkin', which was Dunkin' Donuts is now just Dunkin'.

Lorraine Kessler
I think that's perfectly fine. I think that's a good refresh. I think it was, they were very patient in how many years they took to go to the shortened name. And I'll go back to what we talked about earlier, General Electric, GE, right? We were talking about their logo. But General Electric, most people call GE and GE calls itself GE today because people called it that first. And Kentucky Fried Chicken, I'll make that analogy. People called it KFC before Kentucky Fried Chicken went to KFC. If people give you that shortened abbreviated name, you can go with it. I think that most people in terms of their style, their colors, their logo, they've remained fairly constant and they've refreshed. They've done just like what I've said, the Tide kind of evolution where you'd almost have to see today next to the old to see what the difference is. So they've maintained a wonderful continuity through their modernization without disrupting what I would call the recognition for the brand. So I think it's a win for them.

Mark Vandegrift
Good. Well, the one I'm going to give a thumbs up to is Burger King. I'm not a fan of the food. Don't get me wrong. Not a Burger King fan. I like my stomach the way it is. But the fact that they went back to their position, and then adding to that with "You Rule" gives a very good 2020s vibe of the attitude of our society. And to me, they might have done a little bit with their logo, but what really strikes me is that in their brand refresh, they went back to what built them great by going against McDonald's, having the same thing the same way all the time. Don't dare ask for no onions because you'll be in the waiting line for a long time. Whereas Burger King was always about having it the way you want it, "Have It Your Way", and now "You Rule". That one and Dunkin', I thought were both good examples for being in the rear view mirror and saying, good job on the brand refresh.

Lorraine Kessler
Yep, yep, I agree.

Mark Vandegrift
Good. Well, thank you for all those who joined us today. And if you haven't liked, shared, or subscribed, or told your best friend about the Brand Shorthand podcast, please do. And if I didn't say it, Lorraine, I know you'd like me to reiterate it, please subscribe. And until next time, have an amazing day.